A conversation with a roman catholic priest

[Metatron]

Ever since I became the member of this forum and starting posting and looking at the P&D section, I had an urge to discuss some of the most obvious problems about Catholicism with people who ought to know the most about this kind of thing - priests.

I have done so with two, since both are good friends of mine, they didn't mind and were very happy to answer. At the end though, I was surprised to realize that for the same questions, I got slightly different answers.

I am especially curious now what the catholic/christian comunity of the forum thinks of this.

One of the questions was about people, who are born into different religion. I asked what happens to these people when they die, since they could not be baptised (i.e. they could not be freed from the original sin of Adam and Eve), they believe in a god who, even though shares the same basic attributes (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence), refuses Jesus as a God and human, or as part of the same God. Thus they break the first and most important of the three God related commandments.

His response to this was that God is sure to help this person in his life to find the true religion. I said that muslims, for instance, most likely don't convert to catholicism at the end of their lives. He said that if they lived a life listening to their conscience and did what was right, God is gonna be merciful with them.

That leads me to a question... If that is true, why the commandments? If this is true, it is a proof that one does not need religion, especially the catholic religion to live a morally good life, thus there is no need for them or anyone to know the last seven commandments. There is no need for the first three either, since you don't have to believe in the christian God to get to heaven if you lived a morally good life.

However, if he meant to say that people who have a chance to practice the christian religion, must have to do so, while those who can't don't have to, then God is making exceptions. That means it is easier for them to get to heaven than for others. One of the priest said that God choses where we are born, tat means that God makes it easier for some than others, for no reason.

Then he said that religion works like science. We get beter and better in understanng God as time passes, some know God better (obviously, he meant the catholic church). So what he meant to say with this was, that every religion believes in the same God, but some know more about him than others. I might even grant that, but it brings me back to thinking that there is no need to go to church on sundays, there is no need to believe in god and pray to him, you can just live a moral life and get to heaven anyway, without having to be baptised at all.

This was kind of the most important part, I also asked him about homosexuality, I might add that later if anyone will be interested (aftr all, priests don't really contribute to this forum, so some people might wanna know the standpoint of someone ho devoted their life to studying this).

[Aelius]

Eh, hardly surprising for me. Most Christians today are what I like to call "Buffet Christians". It doesn't matter if one tenet doesn't go well with another or even if it flat-out contradicts it. It doesn't even matter what the Bible says. In the end, if it feels good to believe it to be the case, they will believe it to be the case. I was actually surprised to get an explicit confession out of my dad when discussing this with him who, after being cornered, genuinely admitted that while he can't really justify it to me it's just always made him feel good to believe it.

[Metatron]

Originally Posted by Aelius

Eh, hardly surprising for me. Most Christians today are what I like to call "Buffet Christians". It doesn't matter if one tenet doesn't go well with another or even if it flat-out contradicts it. It doesn't even matter what the Bible says. In the end, if it feels good to believe it to be the case, they will believe it to be the case. I was actually surprised to get an explicit confession out of my dad when discussing this with him who, after being cornered, genuinely admitted that while he can't really justify it to me it's just always made him feel good to believe it.

It was quite sad that one of them ended up saying "I believe we have only been revealed part of the Truth, most of it still secret"; "I was born into this, I was raised with this, this is what I believe".

The other one made me wonder, too, when he mentioned the buddhist god (which, as we know has none). The worst thing about this is, he doesn't even know the other religions, yet claims to know why he chose the one he did and that the catholic church holds the most truth, arguing with Jesus's "I am the way and the truth and the life".

[Kevohall]

Originally Posted by Ryann

It was quite sad that one of them ended up saying "I believe we have only been revealed part of the Truth, most of it still secret"; "I was born into this, I was raised with this, this is what I believe".

Whats wrong with that?

[Metatron]

Originally Posted by Kevohall535

Whats wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with what he said, but with the intention. That was how he justified his arguments - he bases them on personal experience, on subjective thoughts. I could use that line to justify my belief in the divine gorilla.

[Kevohall]

Originally Posted by Ryann

I could use that line to justify my belief in the divine gorilla.

Ok, I respect your belief in the Divine Gorilla and Im not going to try and prove your belief wrong

[Aelius]

Originally Posted by Kevohall535

Ok, I respect your belief in the Divine Gorilla and Im not going to try and prove your belief wrong

Yeah, and there's the problem. You would respect someone's belief in the Divine Gorilla and you wouldn't try to show them they're batshit crazy.

[monopoly man]

i just skip church. everyone has there own idea of god and trying to mass produce it is stupid because it's inevitable.

i'm non denominational and un baptised

[monopoly man]

Originally Posted by Aelius

Yeah, and there's the problem. You would respect someone's belief in the Divine Gorilla and you wouldn't try to show them they're batshit crazy.

because for all we know his divine gorilla diety could be real

[Stewie]

Originally Posted by Aelius

Yeah, and there's the problem. You would respect someone's belief in the Divine Gorilla and you wouldn't try to show them they're batshit crazy.

Originally Posted by monopoly man

because for all we know his divine gorilla diety could be real

Fucking hell. Must we?

[iwpoe]

Originally Posted by Aelius

Yeah, and there's the problem. You would respect someone's belief in the Divine Gorilla and you wouldn't try to show them they're batshit crazy.

Yeah, I'm going to have to ask you to not proceed down this line of conversation. That would be great.

[Shangri-la]

Originally Posted by iwpoe

Yeah, I'm going to have to ask you to not proceed down this line of conversation. That would be great.

[Mr.Scientist]

Is this a vent of some sort?

Needless to say, I have done some thinking about the idea of holding morality for those who choose not to believe in a godhead. Not that one cannot be morally upright or just without the intention of serving a deity that they desire to believe in, but even the most moral intentions can come from those who are corrupt. Hitler, for example, namely comes to my mind. As his intentions were of the moralistic sort, but his results were very much the opposite of what he was aiming for. It leads me to wonder whether the belief in a god or single deity is meant to create a universal conformity towards a moral fixation. Assuming a godhead did exist, it could be possibly used to separate the moral from the morally fixated. This leads me to wonder further whether the moral fixation created leads to the feeling of a higher moral being or not. Perhaps someone else could add to this with their own thoughts.

Edit: Another question I might add to this is whether it is not only important to be just morally right, but also more than morally right?

[Proley]

I'm given to think that the morality provided by religion arose as an 'unintended' consequence of the conception of God, which was an attempt to reconcile the phenomena of the world and then evolved with time, opposed to the notion that the creation of God was for the reason of trying to dictate morality in the first place. I think that hominids and primitive humans would have little need for determining a reason for their morality, as their relative egalitarianism and naturalistic lifestyle probably led them to worship things like the sun and stars, which would could not dictate morality, per se.(?) Regardless, it is well known that the Catholic church for example has historically abused it's power and position to dictate morality in it's own favor. It succeeded so fantastically in the middle ages for it's monopoly over morality. It's also a social control, yadda yadda..

I am not sure whether anything can be objectively right, intellectuals seem to be keenly aware of this fact. Morality must be relevant for discussion and determining within the context of providing a social contract conducive for humans living together for mutual benefit though.

[darkcharles]

His response to this was that God is sure to help this person in his life to find the true religion. I said that muslims, for instance, most likely don't convert to catholicism at the end of their lives. He said that if they lived a life listening to their conscience and did what was right, God is gonna be merciful with them.

Yes,God will be merciful with them,the people he refered,in this case muslims,the thing is that muslims are very very close minded and refuse to listen to any other religions,and at the end of time,God will show them(and everyone else) His true will, but that doesn't mean you can say "I'll be an atheist,however God will forgive me"
Romans 3:1-20
1 What advantage is there then in being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
2 Much, in every respect. (For) in the first place, they were entrusted with the utterances of God.
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their infidelity nullify the fidelity of God?
4 Of course not! God must be true, though every human being is a liar, as it is written: "That you may be justified in your words, and conquer when you are judged."
5 But if our wickedness provides proof of God's righteousness, what can we say? Is God unjust, humanly speaking, to inflict his wrath?
6 Of course not! For how else is God to judge the world?
7 But if God's truth redounds to his glory through my falsehood, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
8 And why not say - as we are accused and as some claim we say - that we should do evil that good may come of it? Their penalty is what they deserve.
9 Well, then, are we better off? Not entirely, for we have already brought the charge against Jews and Greeks alike that they are all under the domination of sin,
10 as it is written: "There is no one just, not one,
11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.
13 Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips;
14 their mouths are full of bitter cursing.
15 their feet are quick to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery are in their ways,
17 and the way of peace they know not.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that what the law says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God,
20 since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.

Romans 12:4-8
4 For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function,
5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.
6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: if prophecy, in proportion to the faith;
7 if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching;
8 if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

1Corithians 3:13-15
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

1Corinthians 4:5
5 Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

That leads me to a question... If that is true, why the commandments? If this is true, it is a proof that one does not need religion, especially the catholic religion to live a morally good life, thus there is no need for them or anyone to know the last seven commandments. There is no need for the first three either, since you don't have to believe in the christian God to get to heaven if you lived a morally good life.

I know that atheists can also have a good moral life,but it seems that it's harder for them since they don't have a group of organized philosophies(the commandments) to follow,it's easier for an atheist to fell in criminal acts than a christian.An atheist can say "I'm gonna kill,steal,rape,take drugs,there's no one that can watch me and punish me." Many people say that God's punishment is sending you to hell,but actually,hell it's not exactly a place,it's more like a state of being.For example,if one smokes a drug let's say weed,perhaps at the beginning he'll enjoy it,but later on he'll suffer emotionaly and physically,that suffering it's already your hell. When I was in catholic class,they told us that drugs,and sex disorders such as porn,prostitution,sex outside marriage,masturbation etc are Satan's tools to induce you into sin,because he lures us with drugs and sex disorders making them look as if they were good things,so when you fell to them,you may at first enjoy it,but later they'll make you suffer.
Romans 2:12-16
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 13:9
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

However, if he meant to say that people who have a chance to practice the christian religion, must have to do so, while those who can't don't have to, then God is making exceptions. That means it is easier for them to get to heaven than for others. One of the priest said that God choses where we are born, tat means that God makes it easier for some than others, for no reason.

Romans 9:14
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15 For he says to Moses: "I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will."

Romans 9:19-21
19 You will say to me then, "Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?"
20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?

Romans 2:9-11
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.

Yeah, and there's the problem. You would respect someone's belief in the Divine Gorilla and you wouldn't try to show them they're batshit crazy.

Is it hurting you that we are "batshit crazy"? I also think that homosexuals are "batshit crazy",but is it hurting me? is it bothering me the simple fact that they're homosexuals? of course not! I just respect them and let them be,and I keep living my life happily.