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Thread: New name for atheists

  1. #16
    Neverender is offline
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    Default Re: New name for atheists


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    Well, there are words, and then there are things we associate with those words. Calling yourself an atheist comes with baggage in many social contexts, which is partly why I don't call myself an atheist. If I told that to my family or friends from church? Sheesh...


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  2. #17
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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    I don't see word atheist as something bad and whoever does is uneducated and it's his problem
    Also not all atheists are interested in science
    There is a word for people who do science - scientists
    I'm totally OK with calling myself atheist and dont see the need for a new word for the same thing

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    It is just a word. I don't see what the problem is. Everyone knows that atheist means so it's simple. If you start calling yourself a "negative godist" or something then you'll end up having to explain what it is and might end up just saying atheist just to make them understand. That's unless you think your belief (or lack of) is not the same as what everyone understand an atheist to be.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    You have a point. I don't really agree with your solution though.
    "Atheist" DOES carry a ton of baggage. There's no denying that.
    If you have any doubt that the word "atheist" carries negative connotations or are in-denial about it, just watch this video:


    After watching that, I think everyone will understand your point.
    As to the solution, sure making-up a new name might help. Some are calling themselves "rationalists" now. However, that's not the best word to descrive a lack of belief in god. (You could be rational about religion yet irrational about other things.) In-fact "Atheist" is really the perfect literal word to describe a lack of belief in god.
    Instead of ditching this perfect (minus the baggage) word. I think Atheists everywhere should work to change what people think of us. We don't worship the devil. We don't eat babies. Etc. We're good people. We're moral people. We're smart, compasionate, etc.
    So do try to be polite when speaking of your beliefs (or lack there-of). I know it's difficult when faced with the bigotry which sometimes accompanies religion.

    Let's change the "meaning" of Atheist, not change what we call ourselves.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    There are so many things wrong with religion that I can't see how anyone can have a belief in a god. If there is a god then he really doesn't have a great deal of love. In fact he seems to dislike mankind. I wonder how Jews can continue to have love for a god that exterminated so many of them by the Nazis. If there is a god then was he doing that because he loved them? What sort of god has people running the Catholic church who abuse children? What sort of god puts hatred into the heads of some Muslims and make them want to murder innocent people just so they - very selfishly - will be rewarded in the afterlife? As Ricky Gervais said once, when have you ever heard of anyone kill someone in the name of atheism.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe Stone View Post
    As Ricky Gervais said once, when have you ever heard of anyone kill someone in the name of atheism.
    Josef Stalin's regime persecuted the religious because religion was seen as incompatible with the Bolshevik brand of communism. These people weren't necessarily imprisoned/enslaved/killed in the name of atheism per se, but atheism was certainly the motivation behind it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    Josef Stalin's regime persecuted the religious because religion was seen as incompatible with the Bolshevik brand of communism. These people weren't necessarily imprisoned/enslaved/killed in the name of atheism per se, but atheism was certainly the motivation behind it.
    You wanna compare death-tolls?

    Stalin.... (it is debatable whether or not he was "killing in the name of atheism")
    vs
    Hitler, Muslim Jihad, Jews fighting for Jeruselem, Protestants and Catholics killing each-other in Northern Ireland, Salem witch-trials, Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, etc.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by bicgirl View Post
    You wanna compare death-tolls?
    Sure.

    Stalin.... (it is debatable whether or not he was "killing in the name of atheism")
    True, and I'm willing to have that debate- but it doesn't change the fact he was an atheist who despised religion. While most people who died under his rule didn't die because of his opposition to religion, many did. And with Stalin, it turns out "many" is still a very large number.

    It's hard to figure how many people died under Stalin's rule, but most estimates put it well over 50 million. It's even more difficult to determine how many of these were killed on religious grounds alone. However, if we're to do some basic research (and I'm fairly familiar with Stalin's Soviet Union already) we can get an idea of how widespread religious persecution was in Russia under Stalin. According to wikipedia, 85,000 Orthodox priests were killed in 1937 alone (source cited on the page- it came from a book). Scrolling through various "religious persecution" pages about the Soviet Union, the thousands of people who were executed simply for being religious begin to add up. This is not even including those who were initially arrested, not killed, and sent to the Gulags (there were millions) and later died in imprisonment (there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions). Religious people were one of the three main groups of prisoners in gulags, and there were far more of them even than captured German soldiers.

    However, it is hard to put a firm number on these things for a couple of reasons, the main one being the lack of documentation of such events, the other main one being many Russian records that do exist are still unavailable to the public. I don't think it unreasonable to put at least 1 million deaths of religious people on Stalin, and I would think the actual number is much higher.

    Hitler
    You can't be for real. Hitler killed people in the name of religion? Do go on.

    Muslim Jihad
    Hard to say. The number of people who die directly at the hands of Muslim Jihadists is a lot lower than you're probably thinking. 9/11 was their swansong and that only killed a few thousand people.

    Jews fighting for Jeruselem
    Elaborate on what you mean. Are you talking historically, or are you talking Israel?

    Protestants and Catholics killing each-other in Northern Ireland
    Again, this is small potatoes in our argument. From wikipedia: "Between 1969 and 2001, 3,526 people were killed as a result of the conflict."

    Salem witch-trials
    So we can add another 20 or so to the list. It's sure adding up.

    Spanish Inquisition
    More small potatoes.

    "García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000; applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560–1700—about 2%—the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed." (wiki)

    So during a period over 150 years in length 150,000 were killed for religious reasons. Stalin's policies killed over half as many CLERGY in a single year.

    The Crusades
    Now we're talking. You've got at least 1 million with the Crusades, and probably more. However, the Crusades also spanned hundreds of years. If I were to include other instances of religious persecution at the hands of state atheism (such as the Cristero War or Albania's practices after WWII) I could add substantive numbers to the total.

    *****

    While religion has indeed spawned conflict that has killed millions of people, it's naive to claim atheism has never been the cause of violence. I'm sure more people have been killed because of religion than atheism since religion has had thousands of years whereas state atheism (which utilizes religious persecution) is a relatively recent thing, but my point in responding to you with such a lengthy post is to show you that it's not cut-and-dry that "religion is violent atheists rock."
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    Sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicgirl View Post
    Hitler,
    You can't be for real. Hitler killed people in the name of religion? Do go on.
    Hitler was very religious and you can see that in his writing.
    Particularly this quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
    "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
    If you want to see more: Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism
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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_The_Guru View Post
    Hitler was very religious and you can see that in his writing.
    Particularly this quote:

    If you want to see more: Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism
    This claim is incorrect. All Hitler's writings (and speeches, for that matter) demonstrate is that he was aware Germany was made up largely of Christians and he wanted to appeal to them. Hitler was a master manipulator, not a "heart-on-your-sleeve" kind of guy. It is clear that he renounced his Catholic faith despite being brought up in the Church, and from private conversations with those he worked closely we know that he was very critical of Christianity and perhaps even had a plan to eradicate it in Germany after the war. While Hitler probably believed in God, he was no supporter of religion, and he certainly wasn't concerned with doing the Lord Almighty's work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    It's hard to figure how many people died under Stalin's rule, but most estimates put it well over 50 million
    Surely thats including the death toll from the great patriotic war (ie soldiers as well as civilians)and things like the siege of Leningrad?
    The Yellow Book

    Heaven did not seem to be my home; and I broke my heart with weeping to come back to earth; and the angels were so angry that they flung me out into the middle of the heath on the top of Wuthering Heights; where I woke sobbing for joy.”
    "Did you say the stars were worlds, Tess?"
    "Yes."
    "All like ours?"
    "I don't know, but I think so. They sometimes seem to be like the apples on our stubbard-tree. Most of them splendid and sound - a few blighted."
    "Which do we live on - a splendid one or a blighted one?"
    "A blighted one.”

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    True, and I'm willing to have that debate- but it doesn't change the fact he was an atheist who despised religion. While most people who died under his rule didn't die because of his opposition to religion, many did. And with Stalin, it turns out "many" is still a very large number.
    Stalin didn't kill in the name of "Atheism" any more than he killed in the name of "Afairyism".
    He saw religious people and MANY others as something in his way. He understood the ability of religion to unite people and control them. He feared what would happen if the church didn't go-along with his agenda. (It's actually surprising that he didn't use the church as a tool to further his agenda.) It wasn't religious, it was political. He was an "equal-oportunity genocider".

    Stalin killed for political reasons, not because he was an atheist


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    You can't be for real. Hitler killed people in the name of religion? Do go on.




    "Gott Mit Uns"
    It means: "God is with us"
    That's the belt-buckle worn by every Nazi soldier.

    Just SOME of Hitler's quotes about his religious beliefs;

    "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the
    Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the
    work of the Lord
    ."


    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It
    points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers,
    recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them
    and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In
    boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which
    tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive
    out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for
    the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with
    deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it
    was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have
    no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for
    truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we
    are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I
    have also a duty to my own people."

    "I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of
    the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as
    the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable
    ideal."


    "The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of
    justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had
    occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair
    judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this
    man as the greatest German mayor of all times."

    -Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger of the Christian Social Party
    (Mein Kampf)

    "Heaven will smile on us again."

    "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
    the Almighty Creator."

    "What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
    fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
    assigned to it by the Creator."


    And it goes on and on (and on)....

    In-spite of all that evidence you still choose to remain in denial about Hitler's true religious beliefs?
    Fine. We'll take your little take on the matter as fact then.
    Let's assume that Hitler was just pandering to his Christian audience every time he mentions religion as you say.
    Does that make it all ok? The fact that he could convince an entire population to do these things in the name of God? Your position is even MORE enlightening than the truth. A population of religious lemmings can be convinced to do pretty-much anything, so long as they believe they are justified in doing so by their religion.

    ... and in-fact all the religious killings and genocides throughout history makes that point pretty-well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    Hard to say. The number of people who die directly at the hands of Muslim Jihadists is a lot lower than you're probably thinking. 9/11 was their swansong and that only killed a few thousand people.
    I didn't mean to say SPECIFICALLY only Jihadists. I'm speaking of Muslim religious zealots in general.
    While they are not exactly the same thing, you're also forgetting about Saddam Hussein who was another famous "religious cleanser".

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    Elaborate on what you mean. Are you talking historically, or are you talking Israel?
    Both.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    So we can add another 20 or so to the list. It's sure adding up.
    Says the person who wasn't there... The person who the church DIDN'T decide was a "witch". I'm sure you wouldn't be so calloused, and dismissive if YOU were tied to a stake ready for burning.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Viva Hate View Post
    Surely thats including the death toll from the great patriotic war (ie soldiers as well as civilians)and things like the siege of Leningrad?
    The siege of Leningrad was part of "The Great Patriotic War." But yes, the death toll includes people who died as part of it. Does that matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by bicgirl View Post
    Stalin didn't kill in the name of "Atheism" any more than he killed in the name of "Afairyism".
    He saw religious people and MANY others as something in his way. He understood the ability of religion to unite people and control them. He feared what would happen if the church didn't go-along with his agenda. (It's actually surprising that he didn't use the church as a tool to further his agenda.) It wasn't religious, it was political. He was an "equal-oportunity genocider".
    This doesn't refute anything I've said- in fact, you're agreeing with me. Stalin despised religion because he viewed belief in God to be incompatible with his Communist state, so he had religious persons killed. I'm glad we're on the same page.

    "Gott Mit Uns"
    It means: "God is with us"
    That's the belt-buckle worn by every Nazi soldier.
    This is your proof that Hitler was religiously motivated? A belt buckle? Germany was a nation made up of Christians; it makes sense Christian values would be reflected in certain areas of society, similar to U.S. currency bearing the slogan "In God We Trust." The German military had been using the slogan "Gott Mit Uns" for centuries prior to Hitler's rule. Your last sentence is just a flat out lie, anyway. The Wehrmacht wore the "Gott Mit Uns" buckles, and the Wehrmacht was, for the most part, unaffiliated with the Nazi party. Members of the Waffen SS (also not necessarily Nazis, though more closely affiliated with the Nazi party) wore a different buckle that read "My Honour is Loyalty." The post-WWII Bundeswehr also adopted "Gott Mit Uns" for a time. Proof that they religiously motivated too? Hardly.

    In-spite of all that evidence you still choose to remain in denial about Hitler's true religious beliefs?
    The "evidence" in question is merely excerpts from his speeches and his writing. I've already told you that we have to tread carefully in this area- Hitler was invested in appealing to the German people, who were Christians. Even if he despised religion (a possibility) he wasn't about to tell the entire country. It'd be like entering a bar in Chicago during the baseball game and yelling "Cubs suck!" You keep it to yourself so you don't get thrown out. As I mentioned earlier, there is evidence supporting the idea that Hitler was just putting on a front for the public and secretly wanted to suppress if not eradicate religion. It surely wouldn't have been the first time he deluded the public to achieve his demented goals.

    Fine. We'll take your little take on the matter as fact then.
    Let's assume that Hitler was just pandering to his Christian audience every time he mentions religion as you say.
    Does that make it all ok? The fact that he could convince an entire population to do these things in the name of God?
    What? Germans didn't follow Hitler because they thought he was religious, nor did they wage war in the name of God. Additionally, he didn't convince an entire population to do horrible things. The complexity of the road to the Holocaust deserves careful examination, not broad generalizations and condemnations. You've got your facts twisted.

    Your position is even MORE enlightening than the truth. A population of religious lemmings can be convinced to do pretty-much anything, so long as they believe they are justified in doing so by their religion.
    This is just gross ignorance of historical fact and twisting evidence (again) to fit your preconceived notions.

    ... and in-fact all the religious killings and genocides throughout history makes that point pretty-well.
    I'm not arguing horrible things haven't been done in the name of religion, but as I've demonstrated, mass murder, war, and violence aren't methods reserved for the religious.

    I didn't mean to say SPECIFICALLY only Jihadists. I'm speaking of Muslim religious zealots in general.
    While they are not exactly the same thing, you're also forgetting about Saddam Hussein who was another famous "religious cleanser".
    I'm not forgetting anyone. You didn't mention Saddam Hussein until now.

    As it is, I'm not that familiar with Hussein or his ethnic cleansing policies, but I do know that he wasn't very religious even though he identified as a Muslim. Can you demonstrate that the slaughter of the Kurds was religiously motivated?

    Both.
    I can't speak to the ancient Hebrews, but modern Israel fights for its survival, not out of some misguided urge to destroy Islam.

    Says the person who wasn't there... The person who the church DIDN'T decide was a "witch". I'm sure you wouldn't be so calloused, and dismissive if YOU were tied to a stake ready for burning
    I'm calloused because I don't much care about 20 or so odd persons that died 400 years ago? You're right, they should hang me. Last I checked you weren't there either, and as has been the case with most of the items you've brought to my attention, religious motivation was not clearly the cause of death of everyone involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

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    Default Re: New name for atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    This doesn't refute anything I've said- in fact, you're agreeing with me. Stalin despised religion because he viewed belief in God to be incompatible with his Communist state, so he had religious persons killed. I'm glad we're on the same page.
    So the fact that he killed EVERYONE in his way and didn't single-out just the religious people doesn't spell it out for you? You're missing the point. Me thinks this is going to be a rather pointless exchange. You're so far in denial you can see pyramids.
    Stalin didn't kill religious people in the name of Atheism. He killed everyone in the name of complete control. If he had singled-out just a certain group, you might have a point, but as it stands, he didn't. This is sharply contrasted by those who kill in the name of religion. They kill certain groups, certain types, and opposing religions, and most of them claim their killing is justified by their religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    This is your proof that Hitler was religiously motivated? A belt buckle?
    Yep, that's my only proof. Oh wait! Cept for the all the other evidence I supplied for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    The "evidence" in question is merely excerpts from his speeches and his writing. I've already told you that we have to tread carefully in this area- Hitler was invested in appealing to the German people, who were Christians. Even if he despised religion (a possibility) he wasn't about to tell the entire country. It'd be like entering a bar in Chicago during the baseball game and yelling "Cubs suck!" You keep it to yourself so you don't get thrown out. As I mentioned earlier, there is evidence supporting the idea that Hitler was just putting on a front for the public and secretly wanted to suppress if not eradicate religion. It surely wouldn't have been the first time he deluded the public to achieve his demented goals.

    What? Germans didn't follow Hitler because they thought he was religious, nor did they wage war in the name of God. Additionally, he didn't convince an entire population to do horrible things. The complexity of the road to the Holocaust deserves careful examination, not broad generalizations and condemnations. You've got your facts twisted.
    So let's see here.... First you claim Hitler pandered to the christians in his country to accomplish his goals (all the while being a "closet atheist" I presume), and succesfully deluded the public into following him... Then in the very next paragraph you claim that the German people didn't support him because of this? HELLO!!! Logic fail anyone??!
    Your level of delusion and denial is SO obvious here... Can you really not see it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    I'm not arguing horrible things haven't been done in the name of religion, but as I've demonstrated, mass murder, war, and violence aren't methods reserved for the religious.
    I never argued they were, religion is just best at it.

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