Westboro Baptist Church

[Mr. Scientist]

Despite the fact that I completely disagree with this church's views on the Bible or anything Christianity based, I watched the BBC documentary. The family disgusts me and Fred Phelps is the most hateful man I've ever seen, but some interesting points I thought to discuss were this:

1)The hate of their world seems to create tighter social bonds with members of the group. Do you think this is necessary?
2)They have no interest in actually convincing others of Christianity, only making enemies. How does this make you feel about contemporary Christianity?
3)Being around the family gives you a de-sensitized view of their religion. Is it possible to get that easily sucked into such a sick message?
4)They take the children to their pickets. Should Children be involved with religious upbringing if they can be so easily brainwashed?

I'm not these are my general views of Christianity either. I am simply creating this thread to discuss the particular church.

[Kavanah]

I'm not a Christian and I don't associate the WBC with Christianity. They use Christianity to mask their hate group. However, a point on #4...children can be "brainwashed" into anything, not just a religious thought-process. If you're religious, you can't have a child and simply ignore your religion.

[Angel Down]

1)The hate of their world seems to create tighter social bonds with members of the group. Do you think this is necessary?

Necessary in what sense? Does every member have to participate in the "hate" to feel like they belong to the WBC? I would imagine there is a certain amount of pressure, yes.

2)They have no interest in actually convincing others of Christianity, only making enemies. How does this make you feel about contemporary Christianity?

It pisses me off. As a Christian myself I am disgusted by people like those in the WBC who give the rest of us a bad name. The WBC is nothing more than a cult. The fact that they militantly and offensively protest things they disagree flat out defies Jesus' teachings regarding love and tolerance.

3)Being around the family gives you a de-sensitized view of their religion. Is it possible to get that easily sucked into such a sick message?

Of course it is. I refer you to The Third Wave experiment if you want to see just how easy.

4)They take the children to their pickets. Should Children be involved with religious upbringing if they can be so easily brainwashed?

As Tovah said, children are impressionable because they are children. It is a parent's responsibility to make sure his/her children are raised the right way. While this often does not happen, it remains the parents' right to instill in their children what they wish.

[Mr. Scientist]

Necessary in what sense? Does every member have to participate in the "hate" to feel like they belong to the WBC? I would imagine there is a certain amount of pressure, yes.

I suppose I was more curious whether the social bonds were something needed in order to keep them strong. In other words, how have their social bonds developed more against the hostility from the outside?

It pisses me off. As a Christian myself I am disgusted by people like those in the WBC who give the rest of us a bad name. The WBC is nothing more than a cult. The fact that they militantly and offensively protest things they disagree flat out defies Jesus' teachings regarding love and tolerance.

Indeed, I think I stumbled across something that explained how it is sin to be hateful and certainly we are not allowed to judge as Jesus explained not to throw the stone unless we are without sin.

[Angel Down]

I suppose I was more curious whether the social bonds were something needed in order to keep them strong. In other words, how have their social bonds developed more against the hostility from the outside?

Ah. I would assume it only strengthens their bonds. Doesn't basic psychology say that Group A grows tighter when faced with Group B, which questions Group A's legitimacy?

Indeed, I think I stumbled across something that explained how it is sin to be hateful and certainly we are not allowed to judge as Jesus explained not to throw the stone unless we are without sin

You are correct. Christianity teaches that anger is acceptable (even Jesus got angry sometimes; see: expelling merchants from the temple), but when anger turns to hatred or violence it is indeed sinful.

[Mr. Scientist]

Jimmy, what about the story where Jesus asked us not to throw the stone unless we are without sin? Why do you believe the WBC has forgotten this story? Or why do they seem to misrepresent Christianity?

I also watched the documentary, "Most Hated Family in American in Crisis" from the same guy. Both were interesting in terms of a documentary even though the film maker had a tough time not arguing with them.

[Angel Down]

Jimmy, what about the story where Jesus asked us not to throw the stone unless we are without sin? Why do you believe the WBC has forgotten this story? Or why do they seem to misrepresent Christianity?

I also watched the documentary, "Most Hated Family in American in Crisis" from the same guy. Both were interesting in terms of a documentary even though the film maker had a tough time not arguing with them.

I'm no WBC expert (that you watched two documentaries about them probably means you could answer this question as well as or better than I can), but I imagine they disregard certain teachings such as the story you've mentioned simply because it doesn't appeal to them. Unfortunately, Christians do this all the time. "I believe in the Bible and my religion except for all that sex stuff" seems to be the most common one, and one which I've seen on this site a number of times. It's one thing to believe a teaching and fail to live by it- that's human error. It's entirely another to ignore it completely.

The WBC is just another group that quotes the Bible selectively to promote their own misguided "truths." Obviously there is some leeway in determining what certain Bible passages mean, but to blatantly ignore the themes of loving and respecting one's neighbor and not judging others unfairly (which are rampant throughout the NT) as well as the fact that Jesus spent all his time dining with sinners and chose a bunch of nobodies to be his Apostles is pure nonsense. I'm struggling to find a reason by which the WBC could justify its actions, and I apologize for not really answering your question.

[Mr. Scientist]

It's one thing to believe a teaching and fail to live by it- that's human error. It's entirely another to ignore it completely.

This is my biggest issue with Christianity. I find Biblical translation to be a big factor. For instance, I don't really understand the Bible's true feelings on homosexuality. I've read the references and they are either confusing or there is something more deep down that the stories don't explain. This is why I have trouble with believing what Christianity says about this topic.

The WBC is just another group that quotes the Bible selectively to promote their own misguided "truths." Obviously there is some leeway in determining what certain Bible passages mean, but to blatantly ignore the themes of loving and respecting one's neighbor and not judging others unfairly (which are rampant throughout the NT) as well as the fact that Jesus spent all his time dining with sinners and chose a bunch of nobodies to be his Apostles is pure nonsense. I'm struggling to find a reason by which the WBC could justify its actions, and I apologize for not really answering your question.

I agree. And there aren't many reasons mentioned other than "love." These people claim to be acting out of love to point out Americans' sins, but that seems completely misguided.

[Angel Down]

This is my biggest issue with Christianity. I find Biblical translation to be a big factor. For instance, I don't really understand the Bible's true feelings on homosexuality. I've read the references and they are either confusing or there is something more deep down that the stories don't explain. This is why I have trouble with believing what Christianity says about this topic.

I think it would be beneficial for many Christians to remember we don't worship the Bible, we worship God.

I agree. And there aren't many reasons mentioned other than "love." These people claim to be acting out of love to point out Americans' sins, but that seems completely misguided.

I guess my response to this is to ask whether or not those in the WBC engage in typical Christian practices associated with fulfilling the "love your neighbor" command. I'm referring to things such as volunteering at the food shelf, donating money/goods to non-profit organizations, etc. It's hard for me to even imagine the thought process...

"Jesus says love your neighbor. My neighbor is a chain-smoking homosexual. I'm going to go yell at him a lot and carry a sign that says 'God hates fags' because I love him so much!"

I just don't understand.

[Mr. Scientist]

I just don't understand.

Neither do I. This is one idea I could not fully comprehend.

[flyboy2112]

WBC is good for society. It provides a clear example of the morally "wrong" side.

[Mr. Scientist]

WBC is good for society. It provides a clear example of the morally "wrong" side.

Morally "wrong" side of...? In what way?

Do you think the church brings together many people due to their intolerance?

[flyboy2112]

Morally "wrong" side of...? In what way?

Well in many people's minds the WBC are so hateful that it convinces people that they're in the wrong, so they're more likely to have solidarity with the victims of WBC's hatred.

Do you think the church brings together many people due to their intolerance?

Yes, the fact that WBC's counter protests routinely outnumber their own is evidence of this.

[madgeisgod]

I actually "like" the WBC in the sense that I like them more than most christian/any religious groups, due to the ease of pinning them down and "othering" them. They also seem more "authentic" to me than other religious groups (obviously not in the sense that I agree with them), as they seem less vague and more serious about what their beliefs are and why--less hypocritical if you will, and with more conviction than most people seem to have. It's partially why I am very skeptical that most believers actually do believe what they claim.

[Mr. Scientist]

I actually "like" the WBC in the sense that I like them more than most christian/any religious groups, due to the ease of pinning them down and "othering" them.

They are definitely an extreme example of a Christian church that has branched off. There are lots of approachs we can take, such as groupthink, etc. How do you mean when you say you like to be able to otherize them?

They also seem more "authentic" to me than other religious groups (obviously not in the sense that I agree with them), as they seem less vague and more serious about what their beliefs are and why--less hypocritical if you will, and with more conviction than most people seem to have. It's partially why I am very skeptical that most believers actually do believe what they claim.

So in other words, they are willing to stick to their beliefs? What makes other Christians not so?