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Thread: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

  1. #91
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    Look, here's what the average family in poverty has (From the Heritage Foundation):

    "These homes typically had both air conditioning and a personal computer.
    For entertainment, they typically had cable or satellite TV, three color televisions, a DVD player, a VCR, and a video game system, such as an Xbox or Play Station.
    In the kitchen, they had a refrigerator, a stove and oven, a microwave, and an automatic coffee maker.
    Other amenities included a cell phone, a cordless phone, and a clothes washer."

    If they're truly living in poverty, they're living beyond their means. Come on, sell the Xbox and at least two of those TVs if your starving. And should they really be buying coffee every morning? And get rid of the Cable subscription!
    1) Modern day life has become technology-centered. You can't say "They have three TVs! And an Xbox! Clearly they are not poor!" They could have been given them, or had them when they lost their job, and didn't automatically get rid of them.

    2) There is no way to know where an opportunity will come from. Maybe the dad will tinker with the Xbox and learn how to fix it, and will eventually get a job at a repair shop. I have heard of stranger things.

    3) And it is nobody's business what they own. As long as they are not cheating the system and meet the income requirements for whatever government programs they are on, then there is no problem.

    4) The heritage Foundation is just slander and botched facts. I know quite a few people who are poor, and most of them don't have cable TV, video game systems, or/and 3 TVs. If you want to see just how dubious I find The Heritage Foundation, you can check HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, and plenty of other places. Stop just spitting out rhetoric.
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  2. #92
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Stevo94:
    First, it's not my fault that you don't know who Speaker Boehner, the most powerful Republican, and Ron Paul, one of the most influential libertarians on the planet, are. Especially with all these "fiscal negotiations", how can you not know who the Speaker is? Where in the world do you get your news? MSNBC? The Daily Show? The New York Times?

    America has not fallen behind. Life will be great in a lot of those countries in the short term, but their racking up too much debt and discouraging education, so they'll fall pretty soon. By contrast, this current level of regulation and when it's been less has allowed America to prosper for A LONG TIME. Why try a different philosophy when this current when has given us such a high relative standard of living?

    You get on unemployment benefits by going to an agency and showing proof of lack of income, I suppose. You stay on it by continuing to show that. And honestly, people can go to job interviews all the want and claim they're trying to get a job, but what if they really aren't trying? I mean, like purposely look bad to the employer. Is their anything in the system that will take away their benefits if they do that?

    If someone is unemployed, and they truly can't find a job, they'd be a very very small minority, and they probably have some mental issues. I'd suggest take away unemployment funding and give it to some sort of mental clinic where they can go. I'd also add funding for an intervention clinic if they don't have any mental problems, that could motivate them and give them advice for interviews at McDonalds or whatever. I mean, teenagers get them all the time. I see "now hiring" signs pretty frequently now. Employers want workers. It must be even easier for an adult!

    I'd also suggest lowering the minimum wage to open up more job opprutunities..

    I don't need a study to say that Southern Europe increased entitlements and they're virtually bankrupt. I don't need a study to show that California is getting there. I don't need a study to show that, in extreme cases like the USSR, people become dirt poor.

    What do you think caused Europes finance crisis?

    Okay, what other things do you think we're important in making America so powerful and a great place to live?

    You can't honestly be trying to say CUBA is a better place to live then the US. It's GDP per capita is only $9,900! Ours is $48,000. How in the world could they have anywhere near the services we do? The math totally doesn't add up! Yes, they live slightly longer, but it must mean that almost all there other amenities are extremely lacking! Not to mention the fact they don't have freedom of speech or religion and one of the worst dictators in the world!

    Uh, Puerto Rico's part of the US. And it's not a country. Thanks for proving my point.

    Singaporeans and Costa Rica also have very limited freedoms. Would you prefer to live in those countries more then us?

    We can't have the best of every single country. It's impossible.

    And yes, Obama's made big payouts to unionized industries. Autos is a great example.
    Last edited by AllieA; Dec-02-2012 at 08:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Neverender:
    The reason why our welfare system is a joke, plan and simple, a lot of people who are on it don't need it.

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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxygen Theif View Post
    Obama's deficit was causes largely in part because of the previous government and economic slowdown. Clinton's surplus was because of a period of growth (business cycle).
    Yes, and the boom was because republicans forced him to implement better policy.

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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    Yes, and the boom was because republicans forced him to implement better policy.
    Wow.

    Just wow.

    And which policies would those be?
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    I'd also suggest lowering the minimum wage to open up more job opprutunities.
    Ah yes, more "opportunities" to be amongst the working poor- because the majority of such "opportunities" are so upwardly mobile.
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    Look, here's what the average family in poverty has (From the Heritage Foundation):
    Out of all the sourced you had to pick, you choose some nutty right wing mouthpiece? Is that really the best you can do? And you couldn't even link to the story that claimed all these "so-called poor" were living it up with their air conditioning, computers, XBoxes and mobile phones.

    Is the standard of education really THAT bad where you live that you're not even taught to a) think for yourself and b) give reputable sources to back up your claims? At the moment it's looking like you'd happily claim the moon was made of cheese if you thought it'd help prop up your argument...

    Just for fun, why don't you look in places other than the right-wing nutjob brigade for your information, it may give you an entirely different perspective on things.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    Stevo94:
    First, it's not my fault that you don't know who Speaker Boehner, the most powerful Republican, and Ron Paul, one of the most influential libertarians on the planet, are. Especially with all these "fiscal negotiations", how can you not know who the Speaker is?
    Perhaps because who America's "speaker" is really doesn't concern me in my daily life. He could wear a pink tutu and I still wouldn't know or care. As I said, the only one I've heard of is that weird Bachman woman, and only because she's loony enough to be lampooned not only in the US but overseas as well.

    Where in the world do you get your news? MSNBC? The Daily Show? The New York Times?
    None of those. I get my news from The West, the ABC, SBS, Sky News and sometimes the BBC or CNN. Other then CNN I'd bet 50c that you've never heard of any of the others...

    America has not fallen behind. Life will be great in a lot of those countries in the short term, but their racking up too much debt and discouraging education, so they'll fall pretty soon.
    Says who, where's your REPUTABLE source to back this up. Did you just invent that to make yourself sound smart or did one of your nutty biased "independent research organisations" tell you what to think and say?

    By contrast, this current level of regulation and when it's been less has allowed America to prosper for A LONG TIME.
    Yep, right up until the whole thing fell in the shitter because of so little government oversight and regulation. How'd this whole sub-prime mortgage thing happen again? Refresh my memory if you can ...

    Why try a different philosophy when this current when has given us such a high relative standard of living?
    How about because America is heading back to the third world and you'll be trading shiny beads if you don't do something about it.

    You get on unemployment benefits by going to an agency and showing proof of lack of income, I suppose.
    You SUPPOSE? You mean you don't actually know? Golly gosh the way you were talking you were making out like you were an expert or something. But it looks like you were just making stuff up because now you're saying you don't really know. Does that apply to all the rest of your unsubstantiated claims too? Which ones of those are made up and which ones are true and can be proven?

    You stay on it by continuing to show that. And honestly, people can go to job interviews all the want and claim they're trying to get a job, but what if they really aren't trying? I mean, like purposely look bad to the employer. Is their anything in the system that will take away their benefits if they do that?
    You tell me, you're the one who knows ... oh but wait, you don't. So you really have NO CLUE if these people who are on welfare and claiming unemployment benefits are legitimate or not. But you've pre-judged them and decided that there must be something wrong with them (see your comment below about them having "mental issues") or that they are just lazy bums, or they're trying to rort the system.

    You've decided all these things without ONE TINY BIT OF EVIDENCE to support it, but you're shouting it from the rooftops as if it were a divine word.

    If someone is unemployed, and they truly can't find a job, they'd be a very very small minority,
    According to your own Bureau of Labour Statistics, the number of long term unemployed is 5 million people. That's double the number of people who live in my entire STATE! That doesn't sound like a very very small minority to me. What do you define as a very very small minority? How many people?

    Now, please pay attention to this part - it's important. See how I've just said something, I've given a figure and made a claim? The normal thing to do at this point (and this is the bit that you keep failing on time and time and time again) is to back it up. So - here's the link to the BLS website, where it says that five million people are unemployed for more than 27 weeks (their definition of "long term unemployed"):

    Employment Situation Summary

    See, it's not that hard, is it?

    and they probably have some mental issues. I'd suggest take away unemployment funding and give it to some sort of mental clinic where they can go.
    Now that's just fucking rude. Seriously. Unemployed people need to be sent to mental institutions because they have "mental issues"??? You're either trolling or someone who really deserves her mouth being washed out with soap like the used to do to insolent children...

    I'd also add funding for an intervention clinic if they don't have any mental problems, that could motivate them and give them advice for interviews at McDonalds or whatever. I mean, teenagers get them all the time. I see "now hiring" signs pretty frequently now. Employers want workers. It must be even easier for an adult!
    Where I live, it's easier for kids to get jobs at places like McDonald's because they can pay them less. I don't know if that's also true where you live or not. But remember those FIVE MILLION LONG TERM UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE? How many jobs are unfilled at McDonald's right now? Do they have room for all five million of them?

    I'd also suggest lowering the minimum wage to open up more job opprutunities..
    The minimum wage is already stupidly low. If you work in a service industry you can be paid just over two bucks an hour according to your minimum wage laws. When I studied history in school, I could have sworn they said that slavery has been abolished in the US. Now I'm not so sure, paying someone two bucks an hour sounds fucking close to slavery to me.

    Even the "full" wage of around $7.25 per hour isn't enough to live on. If you work a 40 hour week, that's $290. How much is rent where you live? I did a quick Google search and the average rent for a one bedroom apartment in your state of Oregon is around $615 per month. So if you earned the minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, you would be spending over half of your income just on somewhere to sleep at night. We haven't even bought food, paid for the electricity, put petrol in the car, or any of those other things. On a minimum wage, how can you even support yourself let alone a family if you're a single parent?

    Reducing the minimum wage would only make things worse, not better. If people can't live on $7.25 per hour now, how would they live on less?

    I don't need a study to say that Southern Europe increased entitlements and they're virtually bankrupt. I don't need a study to show that California is getting there. I don't need a study to show that, in extreme cases like the USSR, people become dirt poor.
    You don't? How do you learn stuff then if you don't study anything? Do you just accept what people around you are telling you? Or maybe you're just very selective in what you choose to "know"? (Oh and if you'd been paying attention and perhaps learning some stuff, the USSR ceased to exist quite some time ago...)

    "I don't need a study" is just another term for "I've made up my mind and I don't care if the facts show otherwise".

    What do you think caused Europes finance crisis?
    Basically, in the 30-second soundbite version, it was because credit was too easy to get, money was being lent to people who didn't have the means to repay it, and property was seriously over-valued.

    But ... I've learned all that from STUDIES and I know you don't need them to figure stuff out, so how about you tell ME what the reason was? What do your mates in the right wing nutjob institute say is the cause? Too much governmental interference I'd be willing to bet...

    Okay, what other things do you think we're important in making America so powerful and a great place to live?
    Well first of all, you can all get your collective heads out of your collective arses and stop bullshitting yourselves that you're the greatest country on earth. You used to be, you could be again one day, but at the moment you're sinking badly. Refusing to acknowledge the true nature of the problems is the first thing you need to fix. Stopping the petty politics and finger pointing as to who's 'fault' it is could then be the second. Electing government representatives who give more of a shit about the people they are there to serve rather than lining their own pockets would be a third. But none of them will ever happen, not in my lifetime.

    You can't honestly be trying to say CUBA is a better place to live then the US.
    Well first of all I didn't say this. Go look up what a "straw man argument" is. You've just built a straw man three stories tall. But while we're on the topic of Cuba, did they get affected by the Global Financial Crisis? How many Cuban banks failed? How many Cubans had their houses reposessed? Cuba's looking better than the US already!

    It's GDP per capita is only $9,900! Ours is $48,000. How in the world could they have anywhere near the services we do?
    Define "services". They have universal health care. Their doctors treat you and don't bankrupt you in the process. This is something the US still hasn't figured out how to do. The US is a third world nation when it comes to looking after its poorest and most disadvantaged citizens.

    The math totally doesn't add up! Yes, they live slightly longer, but it must mean that almost all there other amenities are extremely lacking!
    What ameneties are you referring to? What do they lack that is really SO important and SO desirable that they couldn't possibly live without?

    [quote]Not to mention the fact they don't have freedom of speech or religion and one of the worst dictators in the world!

    And you have a bunch of religious nut-jobs stabbing each other in the back to try and get to be president. Your freedom of speech and religion doesn't put food on the table. They didn't stop millions of Americans being unemployed during the GFC. What real and practical everyday use (other than letting uneducated bigots like yourself have the opportunity to put your views forward) are these "freedoms"?

    Uh, Puerto Rico's part of the US. And it's not a country. Thanks for proving my point.
    What point did I supposedly prove?

    Singaporeans and Costa Rica also have very limited freedoms. Would you prefer to live in those countries more then us?
    Honestly and truly? Yes, I'd pick living in Singapore over the United States any day. Costa Rica - I don't really know enough about to make an informed decision.

    We can't have the best of every single country. It's impossible.
    What exactly does that mean? Or are you acknowledging that the US isn't the best country in the world (this is something that pretty much everyone who's not from the US already knows, you're just late to the party as usual)

    And yes, Obama's made big payouts to unionized industries. Autos is a great example.
    What's that got to do with anything? What were you even referring to as an answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    Neverender:
    The reason why our welfare system is a joke, plan and simple, a lot of people who are on it don't need it.
    Which people? You've already pretty much admitted that you don't even know anything about the welfare system. You couldn't even explain what someone has to do to get unemployment benefits and to keep receiving them. So the "joke" is on you. Your opinions are a joke. The fact that you say whatever you feel like is a joke. Your comment about unemployed people being mentally ill is not a joke, it's rude, it's bigoted and it's the reasons why the conservatives got their arses kicked in the US elections for saying shit like that. No wonder that Romney guy didn't win if people like you are his supporters.

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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Doesn't anybody realize that the president only holds a fraction of actual political power and most of the time it's goddamn congress who handles a lot of the shit people blame the president for? I hate when people switch that up.
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    I'm not really sure anywhere is considering lowering the minimum wage. In the UK all that's really been discussed is a "living wage", which is higher than the minimum and would allow people to actually live rather than just scrape together enough money not to freeze or starve to death. Lowering real wages is a horrible idea! It makes the poor people poorer and the rich richer. How is that helpful, unless you believe that rich people are the only people who matter, whether that's socially or financially?

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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    I'll preface this post by stating that I agree with little of what AllieA has said thus far, or at least with her reasoning for saying it, but since you're being exceptionally rude and making a lot of claims you obviously consider to be self-evident, I felt compelled to join the fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo94 View Post
    Out of all the sourced you had to pick, you choose some nutty right wing mouthpiece? Is that really the best you can do? And you couldn't even link to the story that claimed all these "so-called poor" were living it up with their air conditioning, computers, XBoxes and mobile phones.

    Is the standard of education really THAT bad where you live that you're not even taught to a) think for yourself and b) give reputable sources to back up your claims? At the moment it's looking like you'd happily claim the moon was made of cheese if you thought it'd help prop up your argument...

    Just for fun, why don't you look in places other than the right-wing nutjob brigade for your information, it may give you an entirely different perspective on things.
    Just because the Heritage Foundation is a conservative thinktank doesn't mean everything it comes up with is bullshit by default. In fact, it's doing everyone a favor by admitting it has a conservative agenda. Much more responsible and honest than something like the Brookings Institute, which claims to be non-partisan and unbiased.

    Perhaps because who America's "speaker" is really doesn't concern me in my daily life. He could wear a pink tutu and I still wouldn't know or care. As I said, the only one I've heard of is that weird Bachman woman, and only because she's loony enough to be lampooned not only in the US but overseas as well.
    Wait, you don't know who the Republicans are, yet you think they're nutjobs? The gist of your entire post is that AllieA needs to do some research and get informed before forming an opinion on political issues, but you can't even name some of the most prominent Republicans?

    None of those. I get my news from The West, the ABC, SBS, Sky News and sometimes the BBC or CNN. Other then CNN I'd bet 50c that you've never heard of any of the others...
    The hypocrisy continues. CNN is paid by the Obama Administration. Or perhaps Emmy Award-winning journalist Amber Lyon just hates blacks.

    Yep, right up until the whole thing fell in the shitter because of so little government oversight and regulation

    *****

    How about because America is heading back to the third world and you'll be trading shiny beads if you don't do something about it.
    That's how a free market, capitalist system works. You take big risks, you fail or succeed big. No need to get excited though- I don't think anyone is in danger of having to barter with beads.

    You tell me, you're the one who knows ... oh but wait, you don't. So you really have NO CLUE if these people who are on welfare and claiming unemployment benefits are legitimate or not. But you've pre-judged them and decided that there must be something wrong with them (see your comment below about them having "mental issues") or that they are just lazy bums, or they're trying to rort the system
    How about common sense? When it's easy to abuse the system people are going to abuse the system. While anecdotal evidence, to be fair, I previously posted in this thread about how easy it is to game the system.

    My main point, which no one has yet addressed:

    "I fundamentally disagree with you not because I have no interest in combating issues such as hunger or unemployment but because, in practice, providing a slew of benefits for people makes them less motivated to solve their own problems. There are certainly morally upstanding people in the world who legitimately need financial assistance from the government, are able to obtain it, use it, and then continue on without it once their problems have been solved (such was the case in my family when my father collected unemployment, as mentioned previously). But there are also people like my Aunt- not bad people, not even dishonest by most standards. But taking advantage of the system because the system simply because it's possible and easy. And then, as you mentioned, there are those who defraud the system, and there are also those who depend on it out of laziness (again, only because it's possible to do so). Regardless of the perks that come with such "entitlement programs," I find it difficult to argue that they're super-duper effective and absolutely beneficial to society."

    Now that's just fucking rude. Seriously.
    YOU have the audacity to complain about rudeness after your essay about AllieA's alleged stupidity? Get out of here.

    But while we're on the topic of Cuba, did they get affected by the Global Financial Crisis? How many Cuban banks failed? How many Cubans had their houses reposessed? Cuba's looking better than the US already!
    I'll give you a chance to admit you don't really think Cuba is all that great, and in fact it's awful there, before I proceed to prove it to you.

    Honestly and truly? Yes, I'd pick living in Singapore over the United States any day.
    Wait, what? Are you for real?

    Here, since you claim to value sources so much. Get educated.

    "The right to freedom of association is also sharply curtailed. The Registrar of Societies is empowered to deny registration to associations of 10 or more members on the grounds of being “prejudicial to public peace, welfare or good order.” Police permits are required for any public event involving five or more people. And the government uses contempt of court, criminal and civil defamation, and sedition charges to rein in critics."

    Sounds great to me too!
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redundancy View Post
    Doesn't anybody realize that the president only holds a fraction of actual political power and most of the time it's goddamn congress who handles a lot of the shit people blame the president for? I hate when people switch that up.
    I will always find great pleasure in countering the argument that "Prez gots no real powr! Dont blame Prez!" by simply pointing to the tirade Bush endured daily. If the President doesn't deserve much of the blame and doesn't have much political power then why all the hate for Bush? It's only been 4 years and everyone has already forgotten.

    This isn't directed at you personally (I am guessing you were probably too young to remember much of the Bush presidency), just at your argument.
    Last edited by Angel Down; Dec-03-2012 at 03:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ewan View Post
    I think Obama is actually a member of the reptilian species living at the centre of the Earth. They've been hiding for centuries but now they're back and like, giving people free stuff. #dinosaurs

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllieA View Post
    All I'm saying is the economy is bad, and we have to hold somebody responsible, and the President is by far to most powerful person not just in this country but on the planet.
    No one person is accountable for a shitty economy, if you know the first thing about economics, it is driven by constituents not by a representative. Everyone is accountable just as everyone else, because if you aren't a CEO of a mega corporation, then you are practically anonymous.
    La sola parolanto de la internacia lingvo Esperanto en tion forumo! Aliĝu mi!


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  13. #103
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    The hypocrisy continues. CNN is paid by the Obama Administration. Or perhaps Emmy Award-winning journalist Amber Lyon just hates blacks.
    With all due respect, you make your own argument look just really shitty overall by posting an unsubstantiated blog accusation as if it is fact. The only reason you post it as fact is because it aligns with your bias. If your link was honest it would say CNN is "accused of being paid for news by the US Government by a former journalist" - but of course you write the link as if the accusation has been proven as fact. Bias.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    My main point, which no one has yet addressed:

    "I fundamentally disagree with you not because I have no interest in combating issues such as hunger or unemployment but because, in practice, providing a slew of benefits for people makes them less motivated to solve their own problems. There are certainly morally upstanding people in the world who legitimately need financial assistance from the government, are able to obtain it, use it, and then continue on without it once their problems have been solved (such was the case in my family when my father collected unemployment, as mentioned previously). But there are also people like my Aunt- not bad people, not even dishonest by most standards. But taking advantage of the system because the system simply because it's possible and easy. And then, as you mentioned, there are those who defraud the system, and there are also those who depend on it out of laziness (again, only because it's possible to do so). Regardless of the perks that come with such "entitlement programs," I find it difficult to argue that they're super-duper effective and absolutely beneficial to society."
    What's to address about this? Your point (the bolded) appears to be that welfare programs get taken advantage of more than they actually help people. You're welcome to believe that, but it is a ridiculous belief. It is a point of view for which no good evidence exists. If you want us to address the point of view, you're going to have to provide some positive evidence that it is true, first. Otherwise my response is that the belief is self-evidently untrue, which it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    I'll give you a chance to admit you don't really think Cuba is all that great, and in fact it's awful there, before I proceed to prove it to you.
    Well Cuba does suck, but it's better than a huge number of countries in the world, and for many people life in Cuba - comfortable but without political rights - is superior to what they'd have in America - lots of political rights, but not very comfortable. If I were a poor person, I might prefer Cuba - politics doesn't much matter if you're hungry or bankrupt because you needed medical treatment.

    Plus I can guarantee you've never been to Cuba, not even once, and so I find your desire to pontificate on what it's actually like there ironically hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Down View Post
    I will always find great pleasure in countering the argument that "Prez gots no real powr! Dont blame Prez!" by simply pointing to the tirade Bush endured daily. If the President doesn't deserve much of the blame and doesn't have much political power then why all the hate for Bush? It's only been 4 years and everyone has already forgotten.

    This isn't directed at you personally (I am guessing you were probably too young to remember much of the Bush presidency), just at your argument.
    You are of course correct that the desire to blame things on the President is, for many people, as simple as "does the President share my party affiliation?"

    That said, the two things you said (complaining about Bush's actions while defending Obama) are not logically contradictory. When Republicans criticize Obama for not doing enough, that only reflects a failing on his part if he could have done more. In Bush's case, the worst things he did were positive choices: he chose to go to war in Iraq while at the same time he chose to pass an unfunded tax cut that destroyed the US's ability to respond to the financial crisis without hugely deepening the debt. Criticizing Bush for things he chose to do while defending Obama for things he tried to do but couldn't​ is not contradictory.

  14. #104
    AllieA is offline
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwpoe View Post
    Are you attempting to claim that he merely never used that term? That's a semantic matter and trivial. The implication is the same. He was merely less crass (but only just barely).

    Never mind that after the video came out the many conservative commentators who rallied around him and tried to defend him did and continue to use that exact kind of language.

    One does not vote on a matter but on a whole. Romney was unable to present himself sufficiently well for a sufficiently long period of time to overcome the president's rather modest advantage. That this occurred in a very difficult period is a testament to his overall failure to execute. Presidents have lost in better situations.

    Romney was entirely unable to gain long term momentum. He did start to narrow the gap at a crucial period around September 10th, and this direction held until the 17th or the 18th when his video was disseminated, and at that point he began a sharp decline that continued until the first debate in early October. Had he managed to keep modest momentum until the first debate or even had he managed to keep his position on September 17th flat until October, he would have been in a position where he could have managed much stronger aggregate poll numbers on election day. Would it have made the difference? Maybe, maybe not, but he may have avoided such a thumping in the electoral college.Are you in the least bit aware of the severity of the situation in 2008? I was keenly aware of it. My family's wealth took exceptional hits, and the equity in many people's homes was entirely obliterated. Because of the downturn and a confluence of different situations, my father could have faced poverty. I had to put my plans on hold and focus on building a stable base for myself. My friends who had jobs lost them. My friends who sought jobs could not find them. And my friends who sought academic training either did not find it or found it with no funding and no clear path forward.

    Much of this has reversed, particularly in my immediate area, and I have come out quite strong because of good circumstance and good financial choices. You would have to look at this situation in broad detail to understand where we were vs. where we could have been vs. where we are. Losses from 08 did not halt until somewhere around 2010. And we didn't see great gains in any number of areas until 2011 and 2012, with employment being the last thing to start rising. But things have begun to rise.The academic situation is indeed a perilous and difficult one very close to me, for which neither party has given an adequate solution. However, the cost of schooling and the size of loans has been rising dramatically for several administrations, and through Republican and Democratic control of government. I have no confidence that either party will take necessary action until things become far worse indeed.

    Honestly, having lived through school, I advise your entire generation to consider alternatives to student loans as much as possible, or to try and find lucrative work or else entry level positions in promising industries before attending. Build a base, some networks, and some options before committing yourself to large levels of university debt. You have to have somewhere to go with your investment to cover those loans before you take them. Or else you should seek cheaper alternatives like professional or vocational programs.

    That said, I don't understand the relevance of the SCOTUS to this matter. You need neither "freedom" nor "the Constitution" to do well economically with an education. The two issues are related only obliquely, and anyway, the separation between ruling "ethically" and ruling "politically" seems mainly to be in the eye of the beholder for most observers in most cases. How would you test on this matter? Both parties accuse one another of doing the same thing with high court nominations. I suspect that in the end a true separation between the two realms is impossible: one's politics and one's ethics and what one sees as political and what one sees as ethical are intimately intertwined.I don't think I denied any of that. That said, the man lost. There's no need to campaign for him any longer.Mediocre relative to whom? Relative to Clinton and Bush (pre 2008)? Yes, obviously. Relative to presidents in situations like the one we were in in 2008? We haven't had a situation like 08 since the great depression. Relative to the great depression? We are doing surprisingly well.Do you really think that the solution to American fiscal problems is entirely centered on union suppression, Eric Holder, and tax cuts? I mean I really can't take such a reply seriously. I've lived through three Republican administrations in a state with low union presence and very low taxes. We suffered along with everyone else. All that tax cutting and union suppression didn't shore up American industry or guarantee another American century. At best, it let the United States roar its way to the worst crisis in nearly three generations.

    And my wife's a teacher in Tennessee- and a damn good one. You don't know the first thing about "kicking out the teacher's unions". We didn't get better schools. We got cheaper schools with arbitrary testing requirements to make them appear to be better schools. We got "teacher evaluations" which essentially amount to arbitrary wastes of administrative time in order to construct a falsely objective system from which no teacher or student benefits. We lost job security and pay security for people who don't have high levels of pay to begin with and don't have very good alternatives (and have never been given such).By no means. But unemployment is not a key part of the party platform and has not been in my lifetime. The GOP in practice cares about taxes for the wealthiest Americans ("job creators"), but cares about neither job security, job quality, nor job outcome. The Dems at least pay lip service to labor's actual concerns before behaving in the same manner.

    Also, I'm not sure you understand what hypocrisy means in this case. For me to be a hypocrite with respect to saying that you were "not actually debating" I would have to have not actually attempted to debate with you. I have made such an attempt, both now and previously. What you have accused me of is "being insulting"- which I'll own up to, to a certain extent, though not in this example (Your favorite party's 30 years+ of awful labor policy is not about you, not intended to be about you, and should not be taken to be about you. You can't even vote.) -which I never chastised you for.The problem was not your speed but your inadequacy. I have to keep strong topics good, and in this case there was no chance of the topic being good if you kept replying as you were. But I explained this previously.

    Also, I work, and I think, up until today, I had spent more time on your thread than you had.
    You said he called many people "moochers", which was not true. I have a right to comment on that. It is not trivial. If mitt Romney had actually said "47% of the population are moochers" that would be a much more serious comment.

    I'm totally aware of how the crisis started under bush, but first, the last two years of his presidency he had a Democratic house and Senate. More importantly, the president hasn't made any progress AT ALL. He's still putting more people on disability then getting jobs.

    People on Unemployment are still going up, so even if the unemployment rate is going down, does it really matter? You can't claim the economy is getting better, unless you're definition of better is "beginning to decline less quickly".

    Yes, you are correct that generally the party hasn't affected the cost of healthcare. However, it supports the fact that our best bet is to try somebody new. We know for a fact the Obama administration isn't helping it anymore then the Bush Administration, but there's a chance a Romney Administration could have brung it down.

    Thanks for your advice regarding college. I don't really think I should got to a vocational program...that wouldn't support the lifestyle I want and I'm more the academic type. Maybe I will work for a year and just take like night school my first year out of High School, if that looks more attractive.

    Okay, do you really think that "freedom" and "the constitution" haven't contributed to the relatively high historical prosperity of this great nation? True, both parties accuse each other of it, and that's why continuing the power dominance of the Democratic Party is a bad thing. It will destroy the balance. We need both parties in the court to keep things constitutional, so Democrats can't pass legislation that, say, takes away the right to own a gun and Republicans don't pass laws the interfere with the separation of church and state.

    Personally, I think that judges should have like 8 year terms, and they must be reappointed when they expire. Giving them a job for life seems crazy. I'm not sure what the founding fathers were thinking when they wrote that in.

    The Great Depression was a lot worse then this recession when it hit. A LOT WORSE. Also, we attempted to get out of it under a democratic President with stimulus, social programs, etc. Who's to say GOP policies couldn't make it happen faster?

    Regardless of you're state government, you still have had a Democratic federal government.

    So you're wife's a teacher-and a good one? Guess what, she's one of the victims of the unions. Right now she's probably not get paid anywhere near as much as the old, bad teachers. That would change if we kicked out the unions and paid based on ability and administrator evaluations and not the number of wrinkles on you're face.

    Wait a minute, are you saying Tennessee schools aren't unionized?

    So, are you really asserting that Democratic politicians care more about people then Republicans?

  15. #105
    Angel Down is offline
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    Default Re: Obama didn't deserve reelection.

    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    With all due respect, you make your own argument look just really shitty overall by posting an unsubstantiated blog accusation as if it is fact. The only reason you post it as fact is because it aligns with your bias. If your link was honest it would say CNN is "accused of being paid for news by the US Government by a former journalist" - but of course you write the link as if the accusation has been proven as fact. Bias.
    Of course I'm biased. So is Stevo94. So's AllieA. So are you. So is every news station on the planet. The site I linked is far from the only one reporting the same story- but I suppose you'd expect it to show up on the major networks, right? Somehow, I don't think CNN is interested in the story.

    The most important thing to inspect when determining if a source is credible isn't necessarily the medium through which it's shared (in this case, the site I linked to) but the author of the information, who happens to be an Emmy Award-winning investigative journalist who has previously reported on human rights violations in Bahrain and police brutality in the U.S. Unless you've got something incriminating against said journalist, who appears to be an upstanding and professional human being, I see no reason to disbelieve her.

    What's to address about this? Your point (the bolded) appears to be that welfare programs get taken advantage of more than they actually help people. You're welcome to believe that, but it is a ridiculous belief. It is a point of view for which no good evidence exists. If you want us to address the point of view, you're going to have to provide some positive evidence that it is true, first. Otherwise my response is that the belief is self-evidently untrue, which it is.
    Oh, please. A program isn't successful just because it helps more people than it gets taken advantage of. Even if 10% of the people who benefit from a government program are scammers I would consider it grossly ineffective. Additionally, if you look back over my previous posts (page 4) you'd see that I'm not claiming that there are thousands of degenerates leeching off of "entitlement" programs. I'm claiming that in many cases, people who do not need help from a government program are still able to obtain it.

    I've not had time to read this whole document, but it is certainly an interesting study: Northwestern University exploration of welfare fraud.

    Much of what author Kaaryn Gustafson has to say supports my position on "entitlement" programs, which is that they're often monetarily inefficient for reasons above and beyond the average couch potato.

    As an aside, one part I found particularly interesting is the part about how welfare fraud is rarely prosecuted because the court costs are higher than the amount of money lost to fraud.

    Well Cuba does suck, but it's better than a huge number of countries in the world, and for many people life in Cuba - comfortable but without political rights - is superior to what they'd have in America - lots of political rights, but not very comfortable. If I were a poor person, I might prefer Cuba - politics doesn't much matter if you're hungry or bankrupt because you needed medical treatment.
    Wages are also pathetically low, and there's always the chance they'll toss you in the slammer for the rest of your life, among other things.

    Plus I can guarantee you've never been to Cuba, not even once, and so I find your desire to pontificate on what it's actually like there ironically hilarious.
    You're pretentiousness is as healthy as ever. It's entirely possible for U.S. citizens to travel to Cuba if they're willing to jump through the hoops. You've never met me, nor have I ever spoken to you on GT, so for you to make such an assumption is absurd.

    You happen to be right, in this case. But your assertion that I can't know what it's actually like to be a Cuban and live there doesn't mean it's impossible for me (or anyone who does enough research) to get a pretty damn good idea. Keep grasping at straws, though.

    That said, the two things you said (complaining about Bush's actions while defending Obama) are not logically contradictory. When Republicans criticize Obama for not doing enough, that only reflects a failing on his part if he could have done more. In Bush's case, the worst things he did were positive choices: he chose to go to war in Iraq while at the same time he chose to pass an unfunded tax cut that destroyed the US's ability to respond to the financial crisis without hugely deepening the debt. Criticizing Bush for things he chose to do while defending Obama for things he tried to do but couldn't​ is not contradictory.
    You're making the same mistake as every other person who's ever cried over the presidency. Bush didn't do everything himself, just as Obama has not failed to accomplish things on his own. It is a contradiction, and an obvious one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I use any word any damn way i want, if you take offence well go bugger yourself stupid and stop being so anal
    Quote Originally Posted by cicero17 View Post
    Amen, my nigger.

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