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Thread: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?


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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    I was noticing while watching TV we have quite a few openly gay and lesbian personalities that are regulars. Ellen, Whoopi Goldberg, Elton John, Ricky Martin, Rachel Maddow and many others. In Kansas City, we have at least one well-known gay meteorologist.

    But I noticed in commercials in any scenario in which a couple is lying in bed, it's never a gay or lesbian couple. Anybody think that'll ever change?

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stockton View Post
    In Kansas City, we have at least one well-known gay meteorologist.
    Are you talking about Bryan Busby or Gary Lezak? Because I'm pretty sure that both are obviously homos.
    madgeisgod likes this.

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stockton View Post
    I was noticing while watching TV we have quite a few openly gay and lesbian personalities that are regulars. Ellen, Whoopi Goldberg, Elton John, Ricky Martin, Rachel Maddow and many others. In Kansas City, we have at least one well-known gay meteorologist.

    But I noticed in commercials in any scenario in which a couple is lying in bed, it's never a gay or lesbian couple. Anybody think that'll ever change?
    Eventually, that will change. Presently, our society is still strongly influenced by christian values, many people call these" good old fashioned American conservative values". Many of these people and their churches would like to see all our legislation and policies reflect judeo christian values.
    There are still many things unknown by science about the causes of homosexuality. Hence, this is a very debatable issue.
    Whatever the causes, its important to apply Equal Rights i.e. giving gay people full equality including the right to gay marriage and the right to adopt children. Gay people should have exactly the same legal and Constitutional rights as straight people.
    Equal Rights and Minority Rights are a very important and integral part of democracy and civilized society.

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Silva View Post
    Eventually, that will change. Presently, our society is still strongly influenced by christian values, many people call these" good old fashioned American conservative values". Many of these people and their churches would like to see all our legislation and policies reflect judeo christian values.
    There are still many things unknown by science about the causes of homosexuality. Hence, this is a very debatable issue.
    Whatever the causes, its important to apply Equal Rights i.e. giving gay people full equality including the right to gay marriage and the right to adopt children. Gay people should have exactly the same legal and Constitutional rights as straight people.
    Equal Rights and Minority Rights are a very important and integral part of democracy and civilized society.
    Its important for us to always remind everyone that America is a secular nation with a christian majority. We're not a christian nation. Secularism, the separation of church and state, are paramount. We shouldn't be having any religious based laws! Many evangelist churches would like us to be some type of christian theocracy. Then, America would be known as the United Christian States of America!

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Are you talking about Bryan Busby or Gary Lezak? Because I'm pretty sure that both are obviously homos.
    Gary. I've heard the rumors about Bryan, but I believe he has a wife and kids.

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Well, here's a start by an upscale jewelry store in my home town, Kansas City.

    http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/16...-presence.html


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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stockton View Post
    Well, here's a start by an upscale jewelry store in my home town, Kansas City.

    Gays are gaining a larger presence in advertising - KansasCity.com

    Its good to see ads like this. Hopefully, there will be more such ads.

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Just a priori it's unclear to me what weight an "at birth" origin would even have for homosexuality.

    Even if you could get it accepted that homosexuals were "born that way" you would not establish:
    1. That they weren't "born with" a disease. (People are "born with", for example, Achondroplasia, which we still consider a disorder.).
    2. That they weren't "born with" something with effect that need to be controlled, even by force. (Autism and Psychopathy very likely have a genetic component, but this does not mean that a psychopath can do whatever he likes.)
    3. That they shouldn't be treated or failing an effective treatment have their symptoms managed.
    4. That they should be socially accepted. (People may well be born ugly, but that does not show that one should be attracted to ugly people.)
    5. That their actions are moral. (People may be born with self-interested tendencies, but this does not show that they are without blame for acting in certain self-interested ways.)
    6. That they deserve changes in social institutions to accommodate their particular desires. (A man born with an intense phobia of paying taxes does not, just on that score, become entitled to not pay taxes.)

    All of these things would have to be argued on different grounds. I expect that a great deal of the political weight given to the idea that homosexuals were "born that way" rests on the fallacy that equates "being born such-and-such" with "such-and-such being natural" where "whatever is natural is good." That idea is both pervasive and objectionable on every count.

    Besides, as I've remarked time and time again, the fact the something is a choice or is conditioned by one's environment does not mean that that something is wrong. I drive a car by choice, and I speak English by conditioning. Neither of these are wrong to do.
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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    I'm interested to know why the never ask these kinds of questions for straight people either. Are straight people born the way they are? They usually never ask that question because it's the dominant norm for a person to be heterosexual. I don't really think there is any such gene which people have that make them straight either, at least not one that I've heard of before.
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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by iwpoe View Post
    Just a priori it's unclear to me what weight an "at birth" origin would even have for homosexuality.

    Even if you could get it accepted that homosexuals were "born that way" you would not establish:
    1. That they weren't "born with" a disease. (People are "born with", for example, Achondroplasia, which we still consider a disorder.).
    2. That they weren't "born with" something with effect that need to be controlled, even by force. (Autism and Psychopathy very likely have a genetic component, but this does not mean that a psychopath can do whatever he likes.)
    3. That they shouldn't be treated or failing an effective treatment have their symptoms managed.
    4. That they should be socially accepted. (People may well be born ugly, but that does not show that one should be attracted to ugly people.)
    5. That their actions are moral. (People may be born with self-interested tendencies, but this does not show that they are without blame for acting in certain self-interested ways.)
    6. That they deserve changes in social institutions to accommodate their particular desires. (A man born with an intense phobia of paying taxes does not, just on that score, become entitled to not pay taxes.)

    All of these things would have to be argued on different grounds. I expect that a great deal of the political weight given to the idea that homosexuals were "born that way" rests on the fallacy that equates "being born such-and-such" with "such-and-such being natural" where "whatever is natural is good." That idea is both pervasive and objectionable on every count.

    Besides, as I've remarked time and time again, the fact the something is a choice or is conditioned by one's environment does not mean that that something is wrong. I drive a car by choice, and I speak English by conditioning. Neither of these are wrong to do.
    I think what you've said here is very interesting, but on the off chance that being gay wasn't a choice and in fact people were born to be gay or straight, I think the real reason lies in that we do not ask these questions for straight people in the same way that we would ask those questions about gay people. We never turn around and ask whether just because someone is born straight if it inexcusable for example. Some behaviors that we are born with are also considered immoral such as being a murderer from the evidence that we have on brain functioning. If we ask these questions for homosexuals, shouldn't we be asking them for heterosexuals too?
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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by standardstate View Post
    Having said that, I've always been puzzled by the fixation of both pro and anti gay rights people on this question. If pedophiles were "born that way" we would perhaps have sympathy for them but still expect them to curb their behavior. And people are clearly not in any meaningful sense born a particular religion, and yet the fact that one chooses their religion is not a justification for persecuting particular religions.
    Given how Christian the USA is, and how a great proportion of the anti-gays are so for religious reasons, the "gay debate" is going to be won by either side by trying to establish whether homosexuality and Christianity is (in)compatible. For pro-gays, establishing that you're born homosexual gives a brilliant argument to use against the religious: that who is anyone to cast judgment on what God has created? that why would a benevolent God make someone homosexual and not let them pursue their love interests? Perhaps this won't further gay rights in the direction of, for example, equal marriage rights, but it can (and hopefully does) convince people not to be hateful towards gay people.

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by pheurton View Post
    Given how Christian the USA is, and how a great proportion of the anti-gays are so for religious reasons, the "gay debate" is going to be won by either side by trying to establish whether homosexuality and Christianity is (in)compatible. For pro-gays, establishing that you're born homosexual gives a brilliant argument to use against the religious: that who is anyone to cast judgment on what God has created? that why would a benevolent God make someone homosexual and not let them pursue their love interests? Perhaps this won't further gay rights in the direction of, for example, equal marriage rights, but it can (and hopefully does) convince people not to be hateful towards gay people.
    There are some modern liberal churches which accept homosexuality. They say its compatable with christianity! I guess it all depends on how they interpret the bible.

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    Default Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by iwpoe View Post
    Just a priori it's unclear to me what weight an "at birth" origin would even have for homosexuality.

    Even if you could get it accepted that homosexuals were "born that way" you would not establish:
    1. That they weren't "born with" a disease. (People are "born with", for example, Achondroplasia, which we still consider a disorder.).
    2. That they weren't "born with" something with effect that need to be controlled, even by force. (Autism and Psychopathy very likely have a genetic component, but this does not mean that a psychopath can do whatever he likes.)
    3. That they shouldn't be treated or failing an effective treatment have their symptoms managed.
    4. That they should be socially accepted. (People may well be born ugly, but that does not show that one should be attracted to ugly people.)
    5. That their actions are moral. (People may be born with self-interested tendencies, but this does not show that they are without blame for acting in certain self-interested ways.)
    6. That they deserve changes in social institutions to accommodate their particular desires. (A man born with an intense phobia of paying taxes does not, just on that score, become entitled to not pay taxes.)
    All of these things would have to be argued on different grounds. I expect that a great deal of the political weight given to the idea that homosexuals were "born that way" rests on the fallacy that equates "being born such-and-such" with "such-and-such being natural" where "whatever is natural is good." That idea is both pervasive and objectionable on every count.

    Besides, as I've remarked time and time again, the fact the something is a choice or is conditioned by one's environment does not mean that that something is wrong. I drive a car by choice, and I speak English by conditioning. Neither of these are wrong to do.
    This is a very good and well written argument.

    For the religious, their definition of wrong or sinful behaviour is derived from their holy books. They say that a certain behaviour is morally wrong and sinful if God (according to their holy scriptures) says so!
    Many christians tell me that they absolutely reject the argument that gay people are born that way because this implies that the Creator created some people that way!
    Or, maybe, it implies that this "perfect infinitely powerful" Creator made some mistake in His creation!
    They tell me that people are born straight because the Creator made them that way. They tell me that this "proves" that homosexuality is an "abomination" in the sight of the Lord.

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    Lightbulb Re: Why are possible causes of homosexuality made taboo or censored through rhetoric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Silva View Post
    For the religious, their definition of wrong or sinful behaviour is derived from their holy books. They say that a certain behaviour is morally wrong and sinful if God (according to their holy scriptures) says so!
    Even if we limit ourselves to Christianity, this is neither correct nor universal- for the holy books must be interpreted, and only certain Christians would privileged the bible to the degree you have. Catholics, Anglicans, and the Orthodox, for example, have Church tradition.

    It is simple enough to not that Anglicans, for instance, do not hold on to the prohibition against homosexuality.

    Moreover, there exist Christians who think God commands what is good as opposed to believing that what is good is what god commands.

    Lastly, one should keep in mind that there are fundamentally different approaches to sin amongst the denominations and even within the denominations. Few Christians, pious or not, advocate the return of anti-sodomy laws, and even before Lawrence V. Texas they were rarely enforced. I've found that on the whole even small conservative southern churches will institutionally tolerate the presence of homosexuals- though members may gossip amongst themselves about it. In the Orthodoxy they say things like:

    Men and women with homosexual feelings and emotions are to be treated with the understanding, acceptance, love, justice and mercy due to all human beings...Persons struggling with homosexuality who accept the Orthodox faith and strive to fulfill the Orthodox way of life may be communicants of the Church with everyone else who believes and struggles. Those instructed and counseled in Orthodox Christian doctrine and ascetical life who still want to justify their behavior may not participate in the Church’s sacramental mysteries, since to do so would not help, but harm them.

    Assistance is to be given to those who deal with persons of homosexual orientation in order to help them with their thoughts, feelings and actions in regard to homosexuality. Such assistance is especially necessary for parents, relatives and friends of persons with homosexual tendencies and feelings. It is certainly necessary for pastors and church workers.

    Whereas many mainline protestants fully ordain and welcome homosexuals.

    The only typical holdout for all Christian denominations is marriage. Most churches will not marry, though more will bless gay unions. The future looks bright in this area for mainline protestants, particularly those that already ordain, but I would not expect much change with Catholics (though the lay Catholic opinion is quite progressive relatively speaking) or conservative protestant denominations. I do see some hope in southern conservative protestant "evangelical" churches amoung the younger people, but it's hard enough to be a liberal evangelical, let alone a gay one, so I'm pessimistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Da Silva View Post
    Many christians tell me that they absolutely reject the argument that gay people are born that way because this implies that the Creator created some people that way!
    Or, maybe, it implies that this "perfect infinitely powerful" Creator made some mistake in His creation!
    They tell me that people are born straight because the Creator made them that way. They tell me that this "proves" that homosexuality is an "abomination" in the sight of the Lord.
    People who argue as you have said simply haven't thought about Christianity very much, since thought through most of these claims would lead to all kind of difficulties that have nothing to do with homosexuality.

    The simple way to put it is that if one thinks Christ's death was necessary for all mankind then sin must be a problem for all men.

    The easiest way to deal with the matter is to claim that the desire to make a homosexual choice is the result of human depravity, which is the result of our fall, which is not genetic but metaphysical. There is no way to avoid our fall. No man is born free of the human condition and all are in need of salvation. Indeed, there is a sense in which sin itself is out of our hands. This is why sexuality is such a central issue for Christianity: that's a a place where it becomes quite evident that sin is out of my hands. Lust is not elective. At most, I can cultivate or avoid certain situations where lust occurs and I can repent of it or give myself over to it.
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    We have the press for wafer;
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    All men, in law, are equals.
    Free of Peἰsistratus,
    We choose a knave or an eunuch
    To rule over us.

    O bright Apollo,
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    Shall I place a tin wreath upon!
    ~Ezra Pound, "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly"

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    Oh Mensch! Gieb Acht!
    Was spricht die tiefe Mitternacht?
    „Ich schlief, ich schlief —,
    „Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht: —
    „Die Welt ist tief,
    „Und tiefer als der Tag gedacht.
    „Tief ist ihr Weh —,
    „Lust — tiefer noch als Herzeleid:
    „Weh spricht: Vergeh!
    „Doch alle Lust will Ewigkeit —,
    „—will tiefe, tiefe Ewigkeit!
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Chapter 59, "The Second Dance-Song"

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